Venables/Clemson Defensive Comparison
We need to compare the performance of Clemson's defense over the past 11 seasons to that of Brent Venables' squads at Oklahoma over the same time period. Previously, we looked at OU's performance under BV and compared Oklahoma's defense to Texas/other teams under similar circumstances. The data found for this post were found at http://coachesbythenumbers.com and http://footballoutsiders.com.
Here is how Clemson performed over this time period.
|
Year |
Def. Coordinator |
Record |
Rush YPG |
Pass YPG |
Total Def. (YPG) |
Yards Per Play |
Scoring (PPG) |
|
2001 |
Reggie Herring |
7-5 |
163.91 |
226 |
389.91 |
5.34 |
28.64 |
|
2002 |
John Lovett |
7-6 |
158.15 |
197.23 |
355.38 |
5.03 |
26.85 |
|
2003 |
John Lovett |
9-4 |
131.85 |
204.46 |
336.31 |
4.86 |
19.23 |
|
2004 |
John Lovett |
6-5 |
135.64 |
191.64 |
327.27 |
4.36 |
20.82 |
|
2005 |
Vic Koenning |
8-4 |
120.58 |
196 |
316.58 |
4.73 |
17.58 |
|
2006 |
Vic Koenning |
8-5 |
103.08 |
177.69 |
280.77 |
4.3 |
16.15 |
|
2007 |
Vic Koenning |
9-4 |
118.31 |
188.46 |
306.77 |
4.55 |
18.69 |
|
2008 |
Vic Koenning |
7-6 |
127.38 |
172.54 |
299.92 |
4.48 |
17.31 |
|
2009 |
Kevin Steele |
9-5 |
151.5 |
162.79 |
314.29 |
4.55 |
20.43 |
|
2010 |
Kevin Steele |
6-7 |
128.46 |
191.85 |
320.31 |
4.81 |
18.77 |
|
2011 |
Kevin Steele |
10-4 |
176.86 |
217.5 |
394.36 |
5.6 |
29.29 |
These numbers--particularly the ones in the middle of this timeframe--are good numbers that should allow the Tigers to be successful. Lovett even looks like a good coordinator in some of these statistical showings, though we know he is merely average at best. Also, while we never really liked Koenning's style of reactive defense, he did field a good enough defense to win games. It just turned out that his scheme tended to sacrifice late leads in games. In fact, here is how Clemson fared in terms of defensive FEI rankings from 2007 to 2010 before falling to 50th this past season.
|
Year |
Team |
Overall FEI Def. Ranking |
|
2007 |
Clemson |
10 |
|
2008 |
Clemson |
9 |
|
2009 |
Clemson |
16 |
|
2010 |
Clemson |
15 |
|
2011 |
Clemson |
50 |
Here is how these rankings compare to OU over the past five years.
Overall, OU averaged 11th overall and Clemson 20th over this time period. The lone unacceptable season for either squad was Clemson's '11 campaign that ultimately cost Kevin Steele his job.
We showed you Clemson's per game averages from the past 11 seasons and compare these numbers to Venables' at OU through the table below. Notice that we use Venables' statistics as the baseline, so negative numbers mean Oklahoma gave up fewer yards (or whatever the statistic) than Clemson.
|
Year |
Delta Rush YPG |
Delta Pass YPG |
Delta Total Def. (YPG) |
Delta Yards Per Play |
Delta Scoring (PPG) |
|
2001 |
-73.99 |
-53.08 |
-127.08 |
-1.46 |
-14.8 |
|
2002 |
-50.29 |
-11.94 |
-62.24 |
-0.61 |
-11.4 |
|
2003 |
-18.64 |
-58.03 |
-76.67 |
-0.73 |
-3.9 |
|
2004 |
-41.02 |
12.74 |
-28.27 |
0.43 |
-4.0 |
|
2005 |
-30 |
20.08 |
-9.91 |
-0.3 |
5.5 |
|
2006 |
-4.37 |
10.74 |
6.37 |
0.39 |
1.1 |
|
2007 |
-8.02 |
39.61 |
31.59 |
0.43 |
1.6 |
|
2008 |
-11.17 |
78.96 |
67.79 |
0.69 |
7.2 |
|
2009 |
-58.58 |
16.9 |
-41.67 |
-0.46 |
-5.9 |
|
2010 |
20.47 |
21.08 |
41.55 |
0.26 |
3.0 |
|
2011 |
-42.17 |
23.96 |
-18.21 |
-0.45 |
-7.2 |
If you are trending at home, this data shows that Clemson was largely better defensively from '05 to '08 (under Koenning) and mostly trailed OU in other seasons, sans the 2010 campaign. See below for graphs and analysis for these categories.
Clemson was clearly inferior to Oklahoma for six of these seasons in terms of scoring. The first couple seasons and last year's campaign were much worse than OU's. I also note that OU's worst season saw the Sooners give up 24.5 points per game. Clemson had three seasons worse than this including last season's 29.3 points per game.
The yards per game mirrored scoring. Clemson gave up more yards that Venables' defenses in seven of eleven years analyzed with last season being the worst for either university.
We also need to look at offensive plays per game and time of possession (the thought being that both offenses want to run as many plays as possible to extend the game, thus more offensive plays also means more defensive plays as well).
Here is how the play breakout looked since 2007:
Notice that Oklahoma ran more plays than Clemson in each season except 2007 including last season which implies that OU's defense is pressed as much or more than CU's over the past five seasons. The time of possession statistics (below) show that Oklahoma was able to hold the ball longer than CU in each season except 2007. This implies, since Oklahoma runs a lot of offensive plays, that the defense is able to limit the number of first downs the opposition and gets the ball back to its offense fairly quickly.
To confirm this, we looked at third down conversion percentage (allowed). These data (below) support the concept that Oklahoma historically did a better job of denying the opposition third down conversions than Clemson.
Overall, Venables and Oklahoma were better than Clemson defensively over time periods examined in this article. Further, Clemson installed the hurry up offense for 2011 and the numbers went down the toilet for our Tigers. OU, on the other hand, was fairly consistent and successful outside of some struggles in the middle of the decade. We'll be interested in seeing if/how Venables corrects issues that arose last season and (likely) are associated with the introduction of Chad Morris' offensive philosophy.
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The more you look at VK's stats
the more you have to wonder why he wasnt given the head coaching job. No matter what he’d done as a head coach in the past, his resume was the best one on the remaining staff. In the only stat that matters, PPG, he is the best Clemson has had in some time.
Think it was a mutual parting of ways.
I think VK was good, but I hated the “bend but don’t break” D he seemed to employ.
"Clemson is coming!" - Stephone Anthony
by Tigerplowboy on Feb 13, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
Well VK would not have stayed under Dabo very long
VK thought Dabo was an idiot and Dabo didn’t like him much either.
Something I think we should take into account
Oklahoma has run a true and effective spread offensive for better part the past decade. Clemson has run it for one season. With more time being left on the board due to such a fast pace offense, it is possible that we did not the personnel to play such a game. Hopefully Dabo & Co. will begin to bring in more defensive minded recruits for this team to play with.
Don't give up, don't ever give up ~ Jim Valvano
Not have the personnel to play such a game? More defensive minded recruits?
What other mind would the defensive players we have now have? What personnel did we need to play at the pace on defense?
Being in shape and staying that way should be the focus no matter what the offense is doing.
Your comment makes no sense to me.
Wrote that comment hastily
I was of the feeling this past year that we are in desperate need of depth at the DT and DB position. To me it felt that we hardly rotated at these positions, which exhausting our starters leading to giving out yards/scores. Our lack of depth at those positions hurt us as the season went on. I am hoping that with our recent recruiting and upcoming years strategy is that the coaches can fill those voids with talent capable of getting us back to previous years performance or better.
Don't give up, don't ever give up ~ Jim Valvano
Lack of depth did hurt
but that is no excuse for us to once again getting our butts whipped by GT, NC ST, SC and WVU. Despite all of these horrific showings the one game that will always stand out to me was Maryland. MARYLAND! They won 2 games this year and theri back up QB looked like Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Aaron Rogers, and Mike Vick together.
I wanted Steele’s job after that game.
BV / Defense
If BV doesn’t get improvement from the LB’s this year, you can kiss his good stats good-bye. we will be noticeably weaker upfront than the past two years. Secondary should be in line with previous years. He has his work cut out to put out a solid def this year.
The numbers keep looking better for BV, but I am reserving judgement until we actually play some games.
If we field a top 25 defense next year, then he will have done a great job because we are losing a lot of great players from a defense that was not very good a lot of the year.
Another comparison you could do (and I am not sure how much it would tell you) is to compare how we did against common opponents. Right now, the only one I can think of is FSU, and OU pretty much shut them down the last two years. Also, I think FSU put a lot of time and effort into preparing for OU last year, played them at night in Tallahassee, and OU still shut down their offense.
"Clemson is coming!" - Stephone Anthony
I find it hard to use that as an argument because FSU's offense struggled all year.
I agree with Dr. B that staying in shape and improving conditioning is important, but we should still make a run for the ACC assuming two things:
1) The lack of DE depth doesn’t come to pass (some kids step up)
2) The Oline kids step up and actually block for AE.
Otherwise I see us having a really hard time against FSU, VT, and SCar. The simple reality of the situation is, the ACC is bad enough for us to still succeed in it with our lackluster S&C.
I think he was saying
that they could compare our games against FSU to their games against FSU as our only (to my knowledge) common opponent in recent years.
by PenthouseTiger on Feb 13, 2012 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
Yes.
OU played FSU one week and we played them the next week. How does that compare? We both played FSU the year before, so how did we do that time around? I can’t think of any other common opponents, but if you are making comparisons, then that seems like an easy one to make.
"Clemson is coming!" - Stephone Anthony
by Tigerplowboy on Feb 13, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
Struggled is a little strong
Their “yards per play” was identical to ours and they scored better “per possession” than we did. They’re schedule was easier and that had a lot to do with it but, I wouldn’t say they struggled or were inept all year. They just rolled the bad teams pretty well.
I would’ve liked to have seen them against GT and VT instead of Duke and Miami.
I wasn't aware their offensive stats were like ours
I guess thats a little more encouraging for next year.
Question:
Is Bob Stoops more of a defensive guy or offensive guy, and how involved was he with the defense at OU while venables was there?
"Clemson is coming!" - Stephone Anthony
He's defensive
his brother and Venables essentially run the same defense that Bob developed. Not sure how involved he was with the defense as a head coach, but I would guess that any involvement would’ve been more advisory than anything.
by PenthouseTiger on Feb 13, 2012 4:45 PM EST up reply actions
Big time defense
Was Spurrier’s DC at Florida in 1996 when he won it all, follows the same K. State defensive philosophy as Venables.
How much he’s involved day-to-day I’m not sure, but I doubt its at Saban-level.
Thank you for the response.
"Clemson is coming!" - Stephone Anthony
by Tigerplowboy on Feb 13, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
Interesting, thanks.
I’ve tended to think that if Stoops was “Saban involved” we’re not getting a proven commodity here. If Stoops was hands off, we just made a splash hire with a lot of potential.
The bottom line is that I think most of us would rather be going in to 2012 with the upside of Venables over Steele anyway no matter which one of the above it is.
Defintitely
After the bowl game there was no possible way that Steele could be retained. The perception was just broken after an already shaky season. I hope our offense doesn’t stress the defense THAT much…The million dollar question for this offseason really will be how much depth can be developed along the DL and how much improvement can we see out of Venables’ LB. I’m less concerned with the DBs.
by judge jeff davis on Feb 13, 2012 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
FF, nice work
Pardon my geekage here but, If I could offer anything since I just ran many of these numbers down myself, I would say that if you have the time, “Plays per Drive” is a ton of work but, is the trump card on how fast a defense is getting off the field and how it relates to TOP. I would love to see that for Oklahoma but I’m probably in the minority big time there.
I believe that since offensive speed and “intent to go fast” can’t be directly proven without a stopwatch on every play, you never know if TOP is affected most by the “offense slowing down” and controlling the ball or the “defense getting off the field” quickly. The only thing you can bank on is that the two teams you are comparing probably aren’t operating at the exact same speed on offense and aren’t forcing 3rd downs at the same rate on defense.
“Plays per drive” shows if the defense is getting off the field quicker than another team more so than 3rd down conversions because you can have a 10 play drive with no 3rd downs. I like to use Duke as an example of a team that doesn’t create 3rd downs and yet also gets off the field almost as fast as Alabama does…for all the wrong reasons.
Just a suggestion, I know its a ton of work to do for little reward but I do think it is the trump card and thought I would put it out there.
Good break down
But I find myself still a little uneasy. While OU clearly performed better than us, I believe they clearly had better recruits (minus a few snags like Bowers over the years)… My concern is over how much better his D will be with less star power, or how much that played into his success. Granted his recruiting effects this also.
We may not have the star power in our lines but
our talent across the linebacker core and defensive backs should be up there with the best for the coming years. Probably not as good as OUs but not too far behind.
I don't know either way about this point
Not denying it as it seems reasonable enough but I’m not sure their recruiting has been night and day better than ours. We have been bringing in lots of highly rated recruits for years now on that side, any chance STS could do a defensive recruiting analysis similar to the opponent previews during the season. I’d like to see the numbers, specifically on defense. I have a feeling a lot of the perceived gap has to do with better player development on that side.

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