A Note about Expectations
by DrB on Sep 20, 2010 5:06 PM EDT
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Several folks take issue with our expectations of Clemson athletics. Let me point out to folks one thing: we are unwavering in our expectations of what Clemson can do, and we expect perfection. We love Clemson, but we hold the people that make decisions accountable, and that goes from the top down. Just because we don't point out every issue in every article does not mean they are ignored.
If you don't expect perfection, then you'll never get 14-0. Theres not that big of a gap between teams that go 5-7 and those that go 8-4, but theres a huge gap between 8-4 and 14-0. If you are happy with winning the division, then the division is all youre going to get. If you're happy with "competing" with our opponents, then that is all you will ever get. I'm not happy unless Clemson wins championships, and I expect them to win those championships.
We don't think Clemson plays in such a difficult conference that we can never go 14-0. If we had financial monoliths like Texas, Florida, or Michigan in our conference, that may not be the case, but they aren't in our conference. I expect 10 wins a year no matter what, because we have the ability to recruit the talent to get there and half of our opponents in any given year have no chance at getting to that level. For the most part, only around 3 opponents of ours in any year (looking back at our past schedules) are capable of recruiting top-flight classes.
However, we have several issues here that have to be corrected for Clemson to get to the top and stay there. Just because one issue is fixed does not make us lenient on the others going uncorrected. Are we financially able to stay at the football level of those monoliths mentioned? No, but are we maximizing our current resources? No. We don't make the most of the talent we have on the field. We don't make the best use of our financial resources. Sometimes, after living or working around the Southeast, I wonder why Clemson doesn't maximize its own marketing possibilities. I wonder why everything that happens there is reactive, and never proactive. Why do we wait until every other school has something before we decide to do it?
When we see issues that continue to be uncorrected, we hold the people responsible accountable for them. Jim Barker continually hurts our athletic programs by taking $2.5+ million from the CUAD budget, which puts us in the RED financially for the last 2 fiscal years. We published those findings here. IPTAY sits on $30 million in the bank, and doesn't spend it. We published that here. Am I going to give TDP a pass for conducting a sham of a coaching search for the basketball coach, football coach, or next pitching coach? No, even if Barker is tying his hands, I don't give TDP a pass for his decisions if they don't work out. He is still well-paid from my ticket and IPTAY dues, so he is still held responsible.
This past offseason we gave our football staff a raise. Am I to hold them less responsible or more after that? I don't have many knee-jerk reactions here. If I want someone fired, its for his entire body of work. I did not think Oliver Purnell was a good X's and O's coach, and I said so. I did not want him fired, when many did, because his entire body of work was good. That does not mean I did not hold him responsible for losing to weaker teams in the NCAAs, just that I had not yet reached the level of disgust that would cause me to fire him. Brad Scott's is not good, so when the OL doesn't perform, we will point it out. Jeff Scott appears to be a great recruiter, but Clemson is not in a position to keep guys that can recruit but not coach. We are not to that level of talent or financial resource. His coaching so far has been average, and we said earlier this offseason that we would give him one more year to improve. I also said last week in the Game Preview that we would hold the staff responsible for the WRs they played, and I see the same lackadaisical play from Ashe. I saw it from Dye for a chunk of that game too, so we will point it out. You may want to blame the player, but the coach is the one that is playing him. Powell is in charge of special teams, and our kick return coverage was poor. We had snap issues on FGs/XPs last year, and it crops up again. We will hold him responsible for it. Whomever made the decision to play Harper at RB instead of Ellington is to be held responsible. Steele got what, 350K more? Are we to not point out when his defense doesnt perform 350K worth better, or when we don't hear of him at all in recruiting? Billy Napier made great calls in most of that game Saturday, but its the bonehead ones that lose you games at any level, no matter what your talent level is. 20 good ones don't offset 5 bad ones when the 5 bad ones are the difference between winning and losing. We are not saying that we think Napier or Steele are bad coaches, actually I think they both are good, but they are well paid and not above reproach here.
Mental mistakes go on the Head Man with us. The HC is responsible ultimately for everything, but chiefly the psyche of the team and in-game management. If you go into halftime jumping for joy and backslapping, and take your foot off the throat of your opponent, then you are not taking your opponent seriously enough. Theres room for joy, the game is supposed to be fun, but a game is 60 minutes, and when you don't concentrate for 60 minutes then its the head coach that is responsible. That doesnt mean Dabo is not or cannot be a good coach, because the jury is still out for me, but his record against BCS opponents thus far is not above reproach. He's well paid, and we expect him to manage a game properly, not call a bonehead fake FG or reverse, or signal in the wrong protection on a play causing a sack. Just because he wins some games does not excuse him for decisions that cause us to lose others. I expect him to get it right, and thats not unreasonable. When he wins a national championship, he'll get carte blanche from us, but not before.
Just because its Game 2 doesnt mean we will not point out problems, if you want me to wait til February to say it, too bad. They are the same problems we always point out if you're paying attention. When we have the game review up later this week, it'll be more positive than our postgame posts, simply because we have to move on to the next game, not necessarily because the opinions have changed (though I do sometimes change my opinions while doing the film review). If people in power screw up again, we'll point it out again.
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Very well said
I have the same mentality for the teams that I root for. I’m critical because I expect to win. I don’t ever want to settle for mediocrity.
Total Agreement
Thinking the same thing you guys are, there’s definitely still something wrong with the way this program is coached. I think Dabo has similar expectations to what you guys have, but I think the execution is lacking. Not enough emphasis on fundamentals, poor assistant coaches and uncertainty in the offensive philosophy really worry me.
I’d actually like to see that last issue examined, because I’m curious about your big picture opinions on the offense this year. Obviously you’ve hit the problems with fundamentals and position coaching, but do you still see that schism between Napier and Dabo coming into play during the games? And do you think Dabo is still overruling play calls from Napier, as was alleged last year? Reading back over the posts on that topic from last season after the game Saturday, I came to the conclusion that in the eyes of this site’s writers, Dabo was definitely dabbling in the play calling and to the team’s detriment during the 09 season.
Dabo still interjects in the playcalling, of that I am certain
I think now, after rewatching the game, that the reverse was called by Dabo.
Classic Bobby Bowden
This team will improve in '10... on its 16-16 conference record over the last 4 years.... after losing 20 games in the last 4 years... after having the 7th worst major-conference defense... after not even winning its own division in the ACC in the last 4.
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by Bud Elliott on Sep 21, 2010 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
word perfect
Excellent words by you guys after this loss. Somewhere along the line, we ceased to be “an SEC team in the ACC” and went to just being a marginal acc team. There’s no excuse for Clemson not to be a perrenial top15 team, with some top 10 years thrown in. We should win or at least play for the conference title every year!! We should not be happy winning the division! Ten wins each year should be our goal EVERY year! Ever since that dark day in January 1990, the powers that be have slowly but purposefully lowered our expectations of Clemson athletics in general, and most fans have happily went along. They seem happy with 4 losses every year and will tolerate 5 losses! Obviously changes need to be made from the top down. TDP needs to go, period! Barker needs an AD that will be given carte blanche to run a sucessful athletic program and he needs to not stand in his way. Dabo’s heart’s in the right place but he’s gotta surround himself with coaches that can help not hinder him. AND he needs to wipe that shit eatin’ grin off his damn face in the 2nd quarter just ‘cause yer up by 17…..I knew when I saw him smiling so broadly on national television we would blow the lead and lose the game in the most Bowdenesque fashion. And I’m tired of this shit as much as ya’ll are. Keep holding feet to the fire, boys….We appreciate ya!
Cheap, cheap, and more cheap
That is what you get out of this administration. The powers that be know what they want and have created an environment to achieve it. This is just the way it will be until some new blood in the positions that matter change. Hiring Dabo proved it. Scoffing at the SEC, not that we were getting invited anyway, proved it. Having to replace a pitching coach because they would not provide him a car to use on recruiting trips proved it.
I must say I have lower expectations for this program than yall do. I really am not sure what my expectations for this program are anymore. They have just about killed any possibility that Clemson can be relevant on a national scene. Of course Clemson has the built in ingredients to be relevant, it is just not going to happen any time soon. Or maybe I should say it will not be allowed to happen unless some breaks go our way and we make a miraculous run.
One of my biggest concerns when they hired Dabo was the fact he had limited knowledge or associations with other coaches. He has only coached at 2 places. And he hired for comfort. I think he was very fortunate to hire coach Cheese. I have to really question if he understands how to evaluate assistant coaches. His coaching, not recruiting, acumen has always been in question since he arrived to Clemson. The WRs sure failed to light it up under his tutelage.
Clemson basketball has always been a clusterfuck. Some things are just not meant to be. Karma and location just aint with Clemson when it comes to basketball but because they have sucked for so long, it is easier to grasp an expectation for that program. Make the tourney and make a little noise when you get there. That really is the best result that program can expect. Final Fours?? What the fuck you smoking? I must say that I was not all to disappointed in Purnell’s departure. He had plateaued and frankly, he benefited in coaching at a time the ACC had collectively declined. So what do they do? Hire cheap. Brownell may be a good coach, but Clemson has a long history of white head basketball coaches and well, you know the gist of that story.
Clemson baseball …. Jack Leggett ….. all I can say is “CHOKE!” If you read this blog, then either you are a Tiger fan or trolling, and you know what I am talking about and no further explanation is required.
Frustrating
When I begin following CU in the late 70s the athletic program was in the major upgrade phase with lots of money coming in to build state of the art facilities, strength coaches, etc. We didn’t really try to buy big name coaches, but certainly found some good ones. With the athletic sucess came probation, political infighting, and total abandonment of funding for facilities. The pendelum swung from one extreme to the other. Twenty years later the pendelum has just gotten stuck in the middle. Like you said, we never have the best things first, we’re playing catch-up at best. I think TDP and Barker lack charisma and vision, so don;t expect things to change until they’re gone.
I still think Dabo can become a good coach for us. He at least talks about being physical, playing smart, competing for PT – some of the things that need improvement. However, many of the things that have been discussed (undersigning, O Line, playcalling) are real concerns.
Well said
If you’re happy with “competing” with our opponents, then that is all you will ever get.
Too many Clemson fans see their team as a six-year old kid playing T-Ball. Felt the same way after the ACC Championship Game last year. When it comes down to it, we’ve fielded some of the best talent in the ACC for the past several years and have one division title to show for it.
Talent is on par with the ACC - Draft Picks since 2000
Picks = NFL Draft Picks since 2000, P/Y = Draft Picks/Season, 1st = 1st Rounders, 1/Y = 1st Round Picks/Year
Clemson is about on par with most of the ACC as far as talent.
I write stuff From the Rumble Seat.
Your figure neither proves nor refutes your claim
NFL drafted talent is a function of recruited talent + the ability to develop said talent. All your figure says is that when the combination of the two is considered, we are on par.
The entire premise here is that we don’t develop or utilize the talent.
You're missing a table
Add one more table here showing Rivals/whatever rankings for classes over the ~5 years, and then compare that table to the table above. That would support/refute the claim being discussed in the post here. From eyeballing Rivals, Clemson has ranked in the top 3 in talent (with the notable exception of 2009—the coaching turnover year). Standard caveat about how prep rankings aren’t perfect, etc. but Clemson fans are perfectly justified, given the assumend talent coming into the program, in expecting to play in ACC title games right now. It just ain’t happening.
If you are so inclined BirdGT, comparison of the two tables could make for an extremely crude metric of how well a team develops its talent. Its not perfect—there isn’t a incoming class-to-graduating class correspondance, but if you take roughly the same time periods could be interesting. My guess is Clemson comes out below average on the metric and GT fares reasonably well.
historically
GT has had a very bad graduation rate from the football team. So I don’t really wanna look at how bad we’ve done getting players to graduate from Tech.
Also, I started pulling numbers for teams in the GT-Clemson recruiting range and everyone’s about on par with their NFL draft picks. Clemson pulls in about 1 more 4 star per year than GT, NC State, MD, or UNC but that’s about the only difference. All of the middle ACC squads pick up about 10 3 stars a year and 6-8 2 stars. There’s not a huge difference between Clemson’s recruiting and the other mid-tier ACC squads in the NFL chart (based on Scout). I’m not a big time recruiting guy though so maybe someone who really obsesses over the underage can give us better data.
Over the past few years, FSU, Miami, and UVA are pretty far ahead of everyone else as far as recruiting “talent.” Even then, I don’t believe half of those ratings. Most of our NFL prospects have been 2-3 stars. The can’t misses are 5 stars coming out of high school but an 8 year old could spot Calvin or CJ Spiller-type talent in high school.
I write stuff From the Rumble Seat.
We have compiled it, just didnt release it.
UVA isnt up there in Rivals ranks, Clemson runs 3rd, on roughly equal footing with UNC at the moment.
timing
I think it depends on the time frame you look at. Clemson really started pulling in better classes around 2006, so its still pretty difficult to say how well they are doing with the talent they recruit with regards to the NFL draft. If you are aligning the recent NFL drafts to the recruiting classes from four-five years ago then yes, you will find Clemson is slightly above middle tier in ACC recruiting. The next 4 or so NFL drafts should be more telling for Clemson.
Over the past few years, FSU, Miami, and UVA are pretty far ahead of everyone else as far as recruiting "talent."
I agree that recruiting sites get things wrong, and they are really only useful for looking at general trends. But this statement is just wrong. Since 2006 (2009 as the exception) Clemson has been running a solid 3rd in the ACC behind FSU and Miami, with the difference between Clemson and FSU/Miami roughly equal to the difference between Clemson and the rest of the pack. You can take a year from an specific recuiting site out of context, or decide to use “star players” instead of points for a given year, but if you look at the trends Clemson is doing well. (Now, whether Clemson is leveraging the system instead of recruiting talent that actually fits their needs is another discussion for another day…) Also, as DrB notes, UNC is making a run on us in the last two-three years. But anyway you slice it, Clemson has been putting some of the best talent on the field in the ACC the past 5-6 years, with little difference in results relative to the last 20 years.
Move Jeff Scott
To RB’s coach and let him recruit, then get a decent WR’s coach or have dabo take it back over
Seriously, building a program is a process
i arrived on clemson’s campus in the fall of 1994. Tommy West’s first full season. The next 14 years we were forced to stomach the football teams that Coaches West and Bowden put on the field. We were 99-70. Read that again.. 99-70 (58% winning perecentage) during the West and Bowden eras. Miserable miserable years. The only thing we did consistently was beat the chickens. Guys, we’re not just going to blink and turn into a top 10 program. We have 20 years of mediocre recruiting, coaching, and performance on the field to overcome. We’re not Ohio St, USC, or Alabama that have the $$ and recruiting pull to be able to do a quick 180 and suddenly be a national powerhouse again.
Tommy West era — anyone remember Tommy saying things like " we’re 5 plays away from being undefeated" Those were 8-4 teams.
Tommy Bowden — Does anyone do a better impression of Henry Winkler’s character from the Waterboy ? Teams would run schemes and make adjustments and Tommy just stood there looking completely hopeless and lost. Those teams couldnt take a punch.
Dabo’s legacy is still up in the air. This is his first rodeo. We can hope that he is a solid evaluator of his assistants and makes moves to benefit the program in the long run. Is he the savior of Clemson football ?? who knows. All we know so far is that we’re not where we want to be yet.. but for everyone jumping off the band wagon after week 3… we’ll still have room for you in a few weeks.
So youre saying I should not be critical until its year 4?
You won’t give Brownell 4 years Sedge. Not with the players he inherited. I’ll remind you of this comment when you criticize him halfway through next season.
There is no bandwagon to jump on or off of. I expect them to perform to their abilities. If they can do it for a half, then they can do it 60 minutes.
Criticize away !
Dr B,
Just as it is every employee’s right to complain about his boss… it’s every fan’s right to want their favorite team to show improvement week over week…. and normally when we talk about glaring issues.. we’re not content with that issue being resolved 6 games later. We want the playcalling issues fixed now.. we want the O line problems addressed now, we want to know that Dabo is looking at his staff and seeing where changes will have to be made. Let’s just all be thankful that Tommy B is not on that sideline, because we all know that in his 10 years.. once that first domino fell… we normally lost 3 of 4 before he’d save his job at the end of the season.
As far as Brownell goes — this year is not going to be pretty in Littlejohn. i’m praying for 8-8 as our guys try to learn a new scheme. I live near Dayton, OH where Brownell spent the last few years at Wright st., and i saw his teams play. As far as I am concerned as long as we see guys running an offense, setting screens, and playing their balls off on defense.. those will be positive signs of things to come.
Interesting point
I think you’re right on this one, 20 years of mediocrity, in a conference that has been pretty mediocre itself is going to be hard to overcome. I think some of us would be more patient if the things we focused on first were being tough and playing fundamentally sound football. I think we are getting tougher and I’m glad to see that, but it’s really the continued fundamental mistakes that make me think we’re not really progressing at all.
I expect coaches in their first 5 years to improve on their performance from the year before, I think that’s realistic. If a coach improves his record in conference every year then no matter how poor you were when he took over, you’ll be competing for conference championships after 5 years. My concern with Dabo is how he will replicate the success of last year. If we can’t play fundamentally sound football and win close games, it’s not going to happen. I just don’t want this to be another wasted five years, and it’s really Dabo’s inability to either see or fix some of the most obviously fucked up aspects about this program that has me worried.
I feel like Dabo, Napier, and Steele all have the talent to be great coaches, they’ll come along in that aspect. But will they get the time? And perhaps more importantly, does Dabo have the management skills to really run this ship in an effective way?
penthousetiger
i think most people see the o-line as the most in need and moving brad off of the line would benefit the team more than moving jeff off of wide outs. brad on rb and the road would make more sense , and allowing pearman to handle the o-line with mckorvey would benefit more. mckorvey has plenty of experience to “assist” the line coaching.
Thank you for this post
I feel every person who visits this site should read this post before they read anything else. This really puts all your other posts in perspective.
Obviously we need a lot more to happen for us to become one of the “big boys” in college football. I grew up in Greenville, SC and have lived in Alabama since graduating in 2001. Let me say this, there is no comparison to ACC fans and SEC fans. Listen to Finebaum for ten minutes and you will find out that Bama fans are intense (probably insane) and Auburn fans are the little brothers begging for respect. But it is this intensity that drives the universities and makes them successful. Everything at Alabama is geared toward winning at football. More students are admitted to the school so they have more money for football, students have to buy tickets to the games, if you bring a baby to a game you have to buy them a ticket, and even the basketball program is a recruiting tool for the football team (Saban said this when they hired their current coach). These are just a few examples.
Clemson does not have this commitment. If we want to be considered legit we will need to raise ticket prices, we will need to make students pay for their tickets, we will need to charge babies for their tickets, and we will need to make the tough decisions that aren’t always popular. We will need to cut coaches, players, and other sports who are not carrying their weight. This summer Les Miles and Nick Saban had to cut players they promised scholarships to because better players qualified when they weren’t expecting it. At these schools it was accepted because that was what it takes to win. Who cares if the national or regional media vilified those coaches? At the end of the season these cuts will be forgotten because these teams will be playing in games that matter and not the Car Care Bowl.
I don’t want to just compete for the ACC crown. I want to whip Alabama and Auburn. I hear it everyday. Down here the rivalry is year round. When I was growing up, Clemson – USC was just a seasonal thing. We whipped them and they kept their mouth shut until the next year. In this state it never ends, and it is only about football. No one cares about baseball or basketball. That is one reason I think the fans are ok with mediocre results. We don’t have to deal with a loss year round and have our manhood questioned day in and day out. Maybe it it was this intense things would be different.
To end my rambling, we need commitment from the University, the coaches, players, and the fans. The fans may not like these changes, but if there is a total commitment from all sides and that commitment is expressed to the fans, they will jump on that bandwagon.
Well put.
Expectations should be very high for this team. We’ve got the talent to match up against anybody on our schedule. If this team can put the kind of effort they showed last Saturday for 3/4 of the game into a full 60 minutes, week in and week out, we could have a tremendous season. Of course, that’s asking an awful lot, but that’s what separates championship teams from the rest. I think Dabo, and the team, gets that, they just haven’t quite figured out how to get there yet. They certainly show more emotion and intensity than anything I’ve seen take the field in a long, long time. And that’s a big step forward. And there’s a solid offensive gameplan coming together to boot.
A loss is a loss and it sucks. And yes someone needs to be accountable. Right now though it’s critical that we come back strong from adversity and focus on the task at hand, winning the conference and playing in the Orange Bowl. Winning a BCS game would atone for Auburn, and this team may just have what it takes. I’m looking forward to a conference championship this year. It won’t be without its controversy, criticism, and holy shit moments, that’s for sure, but the good will outweigh the bad. This is a huge improvement over the last twenty years, but they’ll need our support to take it all the way.
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